The Wolfe Pack

So, a blind person bought a Pinephone, wanting to put Mobian on it. Since Debian has given such good accessibility features on desktop, it should give just as much accessibility on mobile. Debian on mobile should have blind users' backs. Right?

Wrong. This is just what I've been saying for the past year or so. And now, for this person who has spent their hard-earned money on a Pinephone, it's too late. Now all they have is an expensive paperweight. There is an issue created for this, though.

https://gitlab.gnome.org/World/Phosh/phosh/-/issues/47

@devinprater well the pine phone is also by no means end user ready. I am not blind and I still use my de googled android in parallel even without any fancy apps because I am not ok with random crashes when I depend on the phone e.g. as an alarm clock or the screen or apps not working properly. The pinephone is to support linux phones in general and it will in comparison to android devices improve over time. The blindness support will come I am sure. Maybe donate?

@devinprater I wanna push back a bit here to defend the Debian project. Mobian is its own project and is not formally affiliated with Debian. While becoming part of Debian is a goal, it's not expected to come about until the next stable release, so in a couple years.

That said, I'm extremely disappointed more effort isn't being put in to bring mobile Linux to at least the kinda crappy level of accessibility desktop Linux has.

@marie_joseph Okay, that makes sense that it's not a part of Debian at least.

@devinprater I really wish gitlab would federate I wanted to show some kind of support for this, but I would have to have a gnome username for their gitlab instead of being able to use my gitlab.com name. I am quite willing to be an early pine phone and pine time user, but it has to speak, and be at least somewhat usable.

@devinprater why did that guy close the issue

@devinprater All respect to this, but mobian devs, posh devs, gnome devs, and so on and so forth are doing their best in order to deliver a product that is not ready to replace an android device yet, they don't have the resources that android devs have, they're not backed by google.

So if you want to improve this situation, donate if you have money and send the message. Probably a crowdfunding campaign would help.

@jeder I have no idea.

@lorabe This is but a symptom of a systematic issue of inaccessibility in FOSS. People can toss around blame all they want. I didn't even blame Pine for this. And yeah, users should read about stuff they're about to spend money on. But this user trusted the Debian, and thus, Mobian community. But whatever. I'm stepping back from FOSS for the most part. I'll comment on it, but I'm not about to do more work when I'm basically alone in doing it.

@devinprater You are in your right to complain, but that doesn't solve the problem, it prevents understanding.

It's quite easy to complain when you take the availability of funds and hired people for granted, but programmers are spending their free time in good faith and people don't seem to care or acknowledge their contributions.

I guess in this case i will side with the devs, but the best solution to all of this is to coordinate and collect money in order to actually fund development.

@lorabe Sure. As a blind person, I’ve tried putting myself out there, so that developers can work with me and otheR blind Linux users. But sure. I’m just yet anotheR damn user taking advantage of poor developers that are just trying to enjoy something that isn’t their day job. Never mind that companies like System 76 and the Gnome Foundation work on this fulltime. But whatever. I won’t bother the developer gods with such lowly issues as the most disadvantaged group of people ever not being able to use their software which they publish to the world.

@devinprater you have already made your mind on this and i am not going to convince you otherwise, but some of these tools are decades old and just the maintenance takes resources.

I understand your position, but if i was a developer giving away my time for this just to see this kind of attitude, i would certainly stop contributing.

@devinprater @lorabe
Phosh is mainly developed by Purism, not by Mobian, Debian and especially not by Pine. The pinephone costs a fraction of the Librem 5, for the most part because they don't create the software for it. I paid 4 times as much hard earned money for an L5 as you, so that we can have that in the future.
Funding as well as volunteering are needed there.

@danielst @lorabe I’ll fund whoever will work on accessibility. Right now, that's just @storm and the Stormux team.

@devinprater @danielst @lorabe @storm
A big problem is that libre devs seem to just not want to learn about accessibility.
If you spend hours ricing your setup or arguing about languages, you can't claim to not have time to read up on accessibility.

Accessibility is also not something you add as an afterthought, just like security, you consider it from day 0, so you don't have to rebuild things from the ground up when it turns out your initial assumptions are incompatible with accessibility.

@devinprater @danielst @lorabe @storm

Btw this is my regular foss callout post:
if you are thinking of writing another fucking ncurses app you had better have a damn good reason for mimicking a proper GUI toolkit extremely poorly. UNIX fetishism is not such a reason.

@devinprater @danielst @lorabe @storm
I'm saying this as someone who contributes to Guix and experiments with Plan 9: (some) Linux fans need to get their priorities in order.

@csepp @devinprater @danielst @lorabe What's wrong with ncurses? Dialog works great for adding ui to scripts. Programs like cmus are accessible.
replies
0
announces
0
likes
0

@storm @lorabe @danielst @devinprater
Screen reader support isn't the only accessibility criteria.
Supporting high contrast mode or font scaling is not something I've seen in any TUI app.

Also a fixed character grid is a pointless waste of screen space.

Also I haven't seen any TUI besides maybe Kakoune where I could visually select text in a column. Weechat is a notable example of an app that fails this.

@devinprater As Mobian is mostly pulling from upstream Debian, I understand that only specific parts like Phosh have to be fixed? I hope this will improve in the future.

@csepp @storm @lorabe @danielst @devinprater I was recently trying to find resources for this, and failed. As a generally-abled developer of stuff that is usually TUI-based, I have no idea how to ensure that my stuff is accessible.

Is there an idiot's guide to TUI accessibility best practices, like there are for web design?

I haven't learned to build any GUI things competently yet, but I'd _hope_ that Gnome would have decent docs for how to use GTK accessibly...

@devinprater
Debian is what people make it. I can understand the frustration when something does not work. But only if people caring about a particular issue act, then things change. No, it does not necessary to have coding skills, I mean to the people who care. If GNOME or Debian don't care about accessibility, then we need to create another organization that can fund accessibility support. I don't say it is easy to setup such an organization, but that is what it takes to fix this.

@devinprater
Being the only person who care about an issue is hard. But only solution to that is actively seek people who also care about the same issue and build an organization. I do understand the frustration as many times I'm the only person who want to do something, yes, it may not be something as basic as accessibility support, but there are other things which are also important like privacy.
@lorabe

@csepp
See we don't have to depend on people who don't care about accessibility. We can create organizations that care about accessibility and fund people to work on accessibility.
@devinprater @danielst @lorabe @storm

@csepp
When there is a problem, there are usually two ways. 1. Find someone to blame for the issue, which is very easy. 2. Find a solution to the problem, which is very hard. When the solution requires collective action, it needs a lot of patience to work with others and then the solution may take a long time to build. So a lot of people chose option 1.
@devinprater @danielst @lorabe @storm

@devinprater
Purism has a fund your app campaign https://puri.sm/fund-your-app/ You could propose Accessibility support as a priority. Apparently no one thought about it yet. So you could propose that as a priority to Purism and fund it too. @purism
@danielst @lorabe @storm

@seachaint
Off the top of my head: there is the GNOME and elementary human interface guidelines.
@storm @lorabe @danielst @devinprater

@praveen
Good point. Although in theory there already supposed be organizations where accessibility dev is an explicit goal, like GNOME. Maybe a new organization would help move things along faster, but I really really hope that GNOME gets its accessibility act together.
@devinprater @danielst @lorabe @storm

@csepp @storm @lorabe @danielst @devinprater Gnome HIGs appear to be GUI focused. Still, some material looks useful, like keyboard shortcut conventions, thanks.

@csepp @praveen @danielst @lorabe @storm I kinda feel like they’ve forgotten about accessibility, but that's just me being synical. But I wouldn't know how to even start an organization.

@devinprater
It shouldn't be too difficult to start an informal one, but I don't have much experience either. Maybe ask the Gnu Assembly folks for advice?
https://gnu.tools these folks.

@praveen @danielst @lorabe @storm

@seachaint @csepp @lorabe @danielst @devinprater As far as I know, GTK is accessible unless you actively try to break it. Meaning, so long as you use a button as a button, a text box as a textbox, etc it should just work. I know this is a different toolkit entirely, but a good example of doing things wrong was Zoom. For quite a long time, they were using a label item as a textbox. So, Orca would read something like "meeting id label" and you would have to type into that. There was no way to navigate, or read what you had entered. It was easiest to just copy the id you wanted and paste it. They have corrected that problem in the latest couple releases, and it is now using a textbox which works like a textbox, and the accessibility problems magically disappeared. Well, at least for that problem anyway lol.

@csepp
Yes, starting an informal group can be an initial step. So start with a brief note on what you want to achieve and then ask people interested to join you. It can be any group, like a mailing list, matrix/xmpp/irc or a discussion forum. Once you are clear about the goals, you can think about ways to achieve it. There may be existing options like Purism fund your app campaign which you can leverage. Ask people to propose accessibility as one item.
@devinprater @danielst @lorabe @storm

@devinprater @csepp @praveen @danielst @lorabe @storm GTK4 has pretty much a full revamp of the accessibility system (taking out ATK, to use AT-SPI2 directly). It probably seems like bikeshedding, but it's actually them training a team who actually know about accessibility on Debian; all that knowledge was lost during a failed inter-organisation migration when the funding disappeared.

@praveen @csepp @danielst @lorabe @storm I mean there's already @storm and there was linux-a11y.org. There's already an IRC group, irc.linux-a11y.org. But it's so loose, and Billy seems to just work on stuff like Audiogame Manager, which will be great... once more blind people join Linux. I just don't know how to get a group started on reaching out to projects though, because we can't build a desktop ourselves. I mean we don't even have a list of great, accessible apps. Then again maybe even I can do that, and others can add to it. Because again, I can't do this alone.

@devinprater @csepp @praveen @danielst @lorabe @storm Also, AT-SPI2 doesn't work: nothing implements it properly (not even the GNOME apps), and it will hang bits of your computer when you try to use it.

I don't know how *anyone* uses screen-readers on Debian, honestly. (Orca's great, given what little I know about the chaotic mess it's dealing with, but I can't tolerate using it.)

@devinprater
Yeah, something like that "are we accessible yet" site I mentioned a few threads ago would be a good step forward and it would help track progress.
@praveen @danielst @lorabe @storm

@devinprater
There may be more people interested to do this, so first task is to ask people to join a group. If there is an existing group that works as well. Create broad goals first and then it can be broken down to specific apps and problems.
@csepp @danielst @lorabe @storm

@devinprater
linux-a11y.org seems down.
@csepp @danielst @lorabe @storm

@praveen @devinprater @csepp @danielst @lorabe Thanks for the heads up. I let the people in charge of managing the site know. Hopefully it will be back soon.

@wizzwizz4 @devinprater @csepp @praveen @danielst @lorabe @storm I recall a thread where someone recounted some history behind all this, that there were several projects funded by the (American Council for the Blind?) to improve accessibility, but each time Microsoft (a big ACB funder) threatened to pull funding unless they dropped the projects.

And the reason appears to be: governments require accessibility in their software, so MS et al didn't want any threats to their monopoly over government contracts.

So to accuse OSS community of simply not caring enough to bother isn't really accurate - there is deliberate monopolism at play here. MS and Apple might appear to "care more" but only when it gets them access to tenders, and excludes the communal software from the competition.

@seachaint @wizzwizz4 @csepp @praveen @danielst @lorabe @storm Sure, but that hasn't been the case since, oh maybe 2006 or so. So FOSS has had a decade to improve.

@devinprater
Said another way. Someone with special needs did absolutely no research to determine whether the product they were purchasing could support those needs. When the product inevitably did not, it is the fault of the programmers who are working free of charge, despite the fact that it is not yet even a finished project that could be recommended for most people without special needs.

@devinprater
Also there are notable foss subcultures that fully disregard accessibility. /me looking at all the suckless fans.
@seachaint @wizzwizz4 @praveen @danielst @lorabe @storm

@csepp @devinprater @wizzwizz4 @praveen @danielst @lorabe @storm Oh goodness yes, but all communities are full of terrible people. The people who care cluster in caring communities.

Are they smaller than they should be? Yes. But I have a feeling that dev burnout particularly affects people working in areas like this. Especially when some of the best of them may have seen several cycles of monopoly-death after getting their hopes up.

I do think it's a responsibility to make accessibility a first-class requirement for any serious project. Like documentation, it should be drilled into budding devs that this isn't optional. And so things like Phosh failing to take it seriously from day 1 does bother me. Do it badly if that's all you can do. But fucking do it.

@jlcrawf Said another way: A person with accessibility needs trusted a community that seemed similar to Debian to provide an accessible phone experience. Trusting FOSS, the user bought a Pinephone to put Mobian on it, and was let down. Yes, the user could have done some research. But as scattered as accessibility information for Linux is, the user may not even have found anything saying that accessibility services weren't in Mobian yet, because developers only think of people that sense like them, feel like them, act like them, and think like them. All else is marked "special needs" so as to be othered.

@wizzwizz4 @devinprater @csepp @praveen @danielst @lorabe @storm Testing latest GTK 4 on arch linux with gtk4-demo and orca, the experience is rather unintuitive as compared to GTK 3.
Orca can't flat review, can't intercept keypresses, roles and states are not wired.
Looking at GTK gitlab I can only find some stale a11y related issues.

@wizzwizz4 @devinprater @csepp @praveen @danielst @lorabe @storm Looking at other gnome apps I see some of them are transitioning to GTK 4. If nothing radical happens by the time gnome 42 gets released we will feel a11y experience is rapidly degrading I'm afraid.

@pvagner @wizzwizz4 @devinprater @csepp @praveen @danielst @lorabe I do not use Gnome, haven't done so since gnome 3 came out. Litterally the only reason I use orca is because it's the only GUI screen reader for Linux. My hope is that most of the apps I use will stick with GTK 2 and 3. I have heard quite awful things about gtk 4, and not just for a11y.

@storm @lorabe @danielst @devinprater @wizzwizz4 @csepp @pvagner I just donated 50 USD to https://puri.sm/fund-your-app/ to fund "Software Optimizations: Accessibility support/screen reader support with phosh/gtk4" @purism I think we need to find ways to fund a11y support in gtk4, sticking with older unsupported versions is not going to be sustainable for long term.

@storm @lorabe @danielst @praveen @devinprater @wizzwizz4 @csepp OK, then this effect won't be visible to you right now, however sooner or later more and more apps will use GTK 4. It's the same with GTK 2 and GTK 3. Only old rather unmaintained apps are targetting GTK 2 these days.

@pvagner @lorabe @danielst @praveen @devinprater @wizzwizz4 @csepp while that is true, QT accessibility keeps improving. I am hoping that by the time GTK becomes completely unusable that QT will have taken its place. Fortunately, in my case, I use CLI for most things, so if I absolutely had to, I could install a Windows VM for the things I can't do graphically. That is last resort, but it is an option.

@storm @lorabe @danielst @devinprater @wizzwizz4 @csepp @pvagner @purism I just talked to someone at Purism and they are positive about supporting it as it aligns with their goals. They are asking me for a list of priorities. I suggested screen reader, but if you all, who needs this more than me, can create a prioritized list of accessibility features, then I can share it with them.

@praveen @storm @lorabe @danielst @devinprater @wizzwizz4 @csepp In relation to @purism The most prominent and difficult to implement feature would be aware touch input support. In order to be productive we need to be able to explore the screen content before activating touch controls.

@pvagner @praveen @storm @lorabe @danielst @devinprater @csepp @purism What would the UI for that be like? "Single tap reads, double tap activates"? (Would there be a clicking noise when you tap something, or does it just read straight away?)

From what I can tell, the stuff I've described wouldn't be that hard to implement, assuming a correct AT-SPI2 implementation in the application. In Firefox, you'd be able to "see through walls" (be told about things in hidden tabs) until that bug is fixed.

@wizzwizz4 @praveen @storm @lorabe @danielst @devinprater @csepp @purism Single tap / touch / hover would read what's under the finger if there is enough text / accessibility support within the underlying control. Double tap should activate. There should be also a way to assign other touch gestures to screen reader actions such as text review commands

@praveen @storm @lorabe @danielst @wizzwizz4 @csepp @pvagner @purism When I get more money, I'll see if I can pitch in here too.

@pvagner
Can you file an issue at https://gitlab.gnome.org/World/Phosh/phosh/ and add these details ? That will make it easy to follow up for them.
@wizzwizz4 @storm @lorabe @danielst @devinprater @csepp @purism

@devinprater @lorabe in Australia it’s straight up illegal to release inaccessible software, whether it’s free or not. by this software even being available in australia they’re breaching international consumer law.

and this is no laughing matter either- the australian government enforces the fuck out of consumer law. everyone from apple to garage project kickstarters have been bitten by australia.

@pvagner @wizzwizz4 @storm @lorabe @danielst @devinprater @csepp @purism Looks https://gitlab.gnome.org/World/Phosh/phosh/-/issues/47 was closed by mistake, it is reopened now. Please add your ideas there.

@praveen @wizzwizz4 @storm @lorabe @danielst @devinprater @csepp @purism I have added ideas discussed here to that issue. Thanks for coordinating

@pvagner @praveen @wizzwizz4 @storm @lorabe @devinprater @csepp @purism
(1/4) While Purism is overwhelmed, understaffed and underfunded, I could actually imagine that GTK4 makes a11y simpler in the long run. Why? Purism created libhandy, now libadwaita in GTK4, providing consistent, complex, advanced, themeable controls, automatically adapting whole dialogs between mobile and desktop form factors.

@pvagner @praveen @wizzwizz4 @storm @lorabe @devinprater @csepp @purism
(2/4) libadwaita controls know about their state, e.g. settings dialog knows it's currently in the WiFi sub-dialog, even if the menu is hidden on mobile. Apps using those controls automatically benefit from all improvements there, be it default gestures or screen reader integration.

@pvagner @praveen @wizzwizz4 @storm @lorabe @devinprater @csepp @purism
(3/4) Question: Is one-tap-read-two-click really a good approach? It implies you have to tap around a lot to find stuff. With libadwaita it should be possible to do something like "read out top level items". For gnome-settings, in desktop mode it would read "menu" and "content: WiFi", indicating that WiFi is the selected menu item.

@pvagner @praveen @wizzwizz4 @storm @lorabe @devinprater @csepp @purism
(4/4) In the mobile view, only either menu or content are visible, starting with menu. Thus, it would instead directly read out the available items, possibly assisted by gestures, e.g. tap: stop and re-read current item, swipe up: read previous, swipe down: continue reading, swipe right: select. Then continuing by reading the top level items, either settings or groups of settings, inside of WiFi.

@danielst @praveen @wizzwizz4 @storm @lorabe @devinprater @csepp @purism Hover or single tap to explore and double tap to activate is a typical interaction model on IOS and android so far. I may very well be missunderstanding but what you are suggesting reads the whole screen at once and users should influence that reading.

@danielst @praveen @wizzwizz4 @storm @lorabe @devinprater @csepp @purism Imagine someone is reading the content aloud and you instruct him repeat the last item, start from the begining and similar. Touching and tapping should hopefully allow us to either navigate to or directly touch the item we are interested in.

@danielst @pvagner @praveen @wizzwizz4 @storm @lorabe @csepp @purism For this, usually one can slide their finger around the screen, to explore otheR items. So, this is "exploring" the screen by touch.

@pvagner @praveen @wizzwizz4 @storm @lorabe @devinprater @csepp @purism
Yes and no. Possibly, different mechanisms can complement each other. BUT I'd take advantage of structural info, which is possibly more available in libadwaita apps than in some frameworks. There might always be free-style content that needs exploring, but structured controls allow much more precise navigation, without possibly missing a weirdly placed item.

@pvagner @praveen @wizzwizz4 @storm @lorabe @devinprater @csepp @purism
For example, the label of an input field is not independent, but directly related.
In my example, you could also swipe down 5 times very quickly, to skip reading 5 items if you already have a clue. And of course keyboard or speech recognition could be used to directly jump to relevant items. But the structural info "this is a menu" should help no matter what is your favorite approach.

@danielst @pvagner @praveen @storm @lorabe @devinprater @csepp @purism Yeah, it already does that; that's standard for AT-SPI2 screen-readers (i.e. Orca, the only AT-SPI2 screen-reader). This is talking about an additional behaviour for touchscreens.

@danielst @pvagner @praveen @storm @lorabe @devinprater @csepp @purism Though mapping *gestures* to “keyboard navigation” is an interesting idea. It probably shouldn't be the default (since it's different to the way everything else works), but it would be cool as an option, I think.

@lorabe @devinprater this is actually an argumentation full of discrimination. At first you define accessibility is less urgent then being able to compete with android. Then you say only people who are able to pay for the project are allowed to define what is worked on. At third, you don't see accessibility as something which is great for everyone and should be thought from the beginning.

@jlcrawf @devinprater “here’s your goddamn gruel, street rat. take it or leave it, but don’t complain because it’s free” is not great sales technique for FOSS. every time I see this sentiment it makes me more sympathetic to microsoft.

MICROSOFT. i hate microsoft! but because MS cares about accessibility and FOSS people don’t, microsoft is better at human rights. and you have to try pretty hard to worse than supporting ICE

@zens @devinprater
The pinephone is a testing product not an end user device. Mobian is barely a year old. While it is the most daily driver ready OS (at least from my research) It has a long way to go before it is ready for prime time.
Again, the developers are working free of charge in their spare time. And yes, they will probably work on the things they need first. Then they will most likely work on the things the the majority need. Special needs will come.

@jlcrawf @devinprater 20% of the population is disabled in some way. I’ve seen foss devs bend over backwards for obscure hardware almost no one uses, or browsees with 1% market share. not impressed with the patronising “wait your turn” tone. one day, you too will he disabled by age. this isn’t a niche issue.

@jlcrawf @devinprater also: is the pinephone a consumer product being sold for actual money?
did they also skimp on fire and electrical safety laws?

@zens @devinprater
If you are going to rely on people working for free in their spare time, then you are going to get what they choose to work on first.
You are not entitled to their labor. They are giving of their labor freely.

@jlcrawf @devinprater repeating the same argument a second time doesn’t make it more convincing

@jlcrawf @devinprater for all your posturing about how the blind person should have done better research; and pointing out warnings on the website about the product they should not be allowed to legally sell; have you bothered to check if the website is accessible to screen readers?

@zens
@jlcrawf @devinprater
It's a little unfair to pretend money/power doesn't exist and to compare PinePhone FOSS accessibility efforts to Microsoft.

During my brief stint at Microsoft, I personally saw the behind the scenes work for getting first-class eye tracking support into Windows 10 intended for individuals with ALS. From the bits I saw, it took a team from the OS/kernel group collaborating with a small internal research group solely dedicated to accessibility. Also, they flew out the Tobii CEO (leading eye tracker company) to Redmond campus and took him to dinner. Not to mention that before it went public with all the PR, the project was already working fine on internal dev builds for at least a year. And that was all just for implementing specific accessibility feature.

I'm glad that there's a conversation happening now while software is still beta, and channels to put things in motion. From the looks of the gitlab ticket, there is some (slow, non-zero) forward progress?

@paul @jlcrawf @devinprater i am sympathetic to this argument, somewhat. right up until the point the pinephone takes money for a product; and the attitude that when push comes to shove it’s fine to treat accessibility as an optional extra whilst spending time simultaneously developing a pinenote and a pinetop.

as I pointed out earlier, you can’t just wave away consumer law by saying it’s free or beta. same as i can’t give away my experimental “mostly waterproof” bath toaster (beta)

@paul @jlcrawf @devinprater if they were selling this as a devkit, with discounts for established proof of working useful software, that would be one thing. but it seems like they are presenting this as a *product*, and the unfinished betaness of it doesn’t fill me with a hacker spirit, it makes me wonder why they are selling a broken half finished product- why do they think this is cool?

@paul @jlcrawf @devinprater and honestly, you don’t need to be a humanitarian to not want to be sued for selling an unfit product- which they absolutely could be - and easily lose; in the USA, UK and Australia under disability laws in these countries. not to mention the UN’s bill of human rights. i wonder how they would think of their wise allocation of resources if that happens?

@zens @jlcrawf @devinprater in fairness, I just looked at the pinephone website and now it looks a lot more polished than it should be IMO. The pine64/pinephone websites used to be a lot more humble in presentation. They must have brought on a marketing department.

The website would have you believe that they are a giant Apple-like company taking equal responsibility for the hardware in software. But in reality, pine64 is a small company that is able to offer hardware at those prices because they are located in china where they can work with the factories directly, and rely heavily on community development for the software experience to cut costs. That I don't think has changed.

@paul @zens @jlcrawf @devinprater I own a pinetab and despite using it for over a year now, the thing is pretty much a devkit. Pine64 market these things as complete devices and finished products, ignoring the fact that they are insanely janky at best and unusable at worst. I went in knowing that's what I was getting and am mostly happy with my purchase, but it is false advertising to call the pine devices anything except devkits.

@danielst
I think continuing this discussion at https://gitlab.gnome.org/World/Phosh/phosh/-/issues/47 will be better, if any info we discussed here but missing there, then please add it.
@pvagner @wizzwizz4 @storm @lorabe @devinprater @csepp @purism

@gcrkrause @devinprater No no and no, i didn't say anything that you have mentioned, you are pretty much putting words in my mouth.

You are the one assuming that to me, a competitive product doesn't need accessibility tools.

You are also interpreting that my suggestion of a crowdfunding campaign has something to do with discriminating disabled people, when my main point is that in order to get things done, we have to get serious instead of reproaching developers who give away their free time

@lorabe @devinprater many open source projects ignore accessibility and when someone steps up to claim that, we should ask how we can help and not tell them why its not possible.

@lorabe @devinprater I am an open source developer on my own, I am pretty much aware of the workload and the problems. But it's simply a really bad excuse not to give a shit about accessibility. And at the same time people tell everyone they shouldn't use their iPhone since its spying on you and there are open alternatives. That's just unreflected and privileged.

@lorabe @devinprater you said, they are already doing as much as they can. But it's not a matter of their amount of time spent, but of their priorities and not considering accessibility as an important feature is in fact discrimination. Its the same as prevent specific languages to be used on their platform.

@jlcrawf @zens Right now is actually the *best* time to work in accessibility! Right from the beginning. When that "oh it'll happen one day" comes, it'll be too late. The interface will be hardened, the API's set in stone, the sound drivers and latency may be too laggy for quick, smooth screen reader use, but not bad enough that a non-disabled person would notice with Bluetooth headphones in. So why not start now?

@zens
The following text should be pretty clear:
> State of the software
>
> First things first, the PinePhone is aimed solely at early adopters - more specifically, the units are solely intended to find their way into the hands of users with extensive Linux experience.
>
> Bear in mind that the software for Linux on phones is very early, with most of the software being in alpha or beta state. That's especially also the case for scalability of applications, their availability and practicability, any hardware function implementations and the firmware. The software is provided as is. There is no warranty for the software, not even for merchantability or fitness for a particular purpose.
>
> If you have any questions regarding the current state of the software or of specific features working, please don't hesitate to ask in the community chat
source: https://wiki.pine64.org/index.php/PinePhone#State_of_the_software reachable via https://www.pine64.org/pinephone/

The company is pretty clear on the fact, that they manufacture hardware to be used by free software developers. And that promise is fullfilled. You can write and compile whatever software you want and put it on the phone.

I feel sorry for everyone, who might have bought this device, thinking it would offer a solid end-user experience.
But blaming a company, which offers hackable hardware to the free software community, for the state of the software, is, in my opinion, unjustified, as it would mean, such a device would not be allowed to exist.

I don't want to attack anyone, and i absolutely agree, that accessibility has to be valued much more in free software, but if the device wasn't sold, noone would have it and therefore no software would exist for it at all.

@paul @jlcrawf @devinprater

@daniel @devinprater @paul @jlcrawf yes, i think everyone here gets the concept of this thing. that doesn’t mean that it is legal,, not misleading, not unusual. it should not say that it is for “early adopters”. the first iphone with no installable apps was for early adopters. the pinephone is for developers only, and it should spell that out.

@daniel @devinprater @paul @jlcrawf also, you can’t waive away your rights. saying “there is no warranty” does nothing. especially in australia.

@devinprater does the person want to sell the pinephone?

@reinhard I have no idea. They’re on the Debian mobile mailing list, I believ:.